Kenneth Jay Vo2max Kettlebell Program

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Viking Warrior Conditioning. Many of you seem to want to know about the kettlebell vo2max protocol – and Viking Warrior Conditioning is absolutely THE book to get for this info. Not only does Kenneth Jay show the how and the why, he “shows his work” with all the relevant formulas, equations, charts and graphs to back it up. Sep 28, 2013  Back when I started using kettlebells the RKC world was all going bananas over Kenneth Jay’s Viking Warrior Conditioning. For people who don’t know this great book was based on university level research using the kettlebell as a means to increasing Vo2max rather than the usual running, riding or rowing approaches typically seen. Oct 05, 2007 With pointers, charts, diagrams, stats and wads of research to back him up, Kenneth Jay delivered convincing proof that a carefully calculated, personalized kettlebell snatch protocol can give you. Questions about Kenneth Jay's call on VO2 max During the call Kenneth mentioned that VO2 max is best reached by using some sort of 'outside resistance' instead of running or biking. He said that he found that Kettlebells and rowing could help increase VO2. Master RKC, Kenneth Jay, the warrior sage equally at ease with a heavy kettlebell and with a force plate, shows you the way.' —Pavel Tsatsouline, author of Enter the Kettlebell! K enneth Jay's VO2max protocols have already become an underground legend in the world of advanced strength and endurance training.

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Display NamePost: Kenneth Jay KB VO2max Program
Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts 25859
01-14-08 01:53 PM - Post#396062
I'm getting ready to start the Kenneth Jay VO2 max kettlebell program that Dan's mentioned a few times. Has anyone else done this, and if so, how long did you stick with the program?
I wanted to make a plan before I get started rather than quit when it gets hard, you know, like about day one.
Boris
Grand Pooh-Bah
Posts 2036
01-14-08 04:33 PM - Post#396136
I haven't tried it, but make sure you've done plenty of conditioning work building up to it. Granted, my training volume is pretty low compared to a lot of RKCs, GS athletes, etc, but to be really ready for that, I'd want to have 6-8 weeks of prep time.
Looks like a lot of fun though and I'm sure you'll make amazing progress.
Kenneth Jay has a swimming background and I remember doing a lot of lactate tolerance type work in addition to 'T30s' back in the day (a 30 minute swim for distance to determine where to set intervals for working sets) - his stuff reminds me a lot of that.
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

DanMartin
I am Groot
Posts 20282
01-14-08 06:12 PM - Post#396170
Laree, do not use anything heavier then a 12kg KB, even lighter wouldn't hurt. Wearing gloves is also okay.
Keep in mind, you can vary tempos. You could do a 7 reps/15 seconds on, 15 seconds off too.
Practice what you suck at.

Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts 25859
01-15-08 01:12 PM - Post#396545
  • Boris Said:
I haven't tried it, but make sure you've done plenty of conditioning work building up to it. Granted, my training volume is pretty low compared to a lot of RKCs, GS athletes, etc, but to be really ready for that, I'd want to have 6-8 weeks of prep time.

This is interesting, Boris. Isn't the idea of VO2 training to start wherever you are?
And to that end, about the initial cadence test I have a question. Here's the bit from the article:
The first thing you have to do is to establish at what snatch cadence you come the closest to eliciting your VO2max. This is done by doing an incremental test that lasts no less than 6 minutes. Basically you just start out very slow and for each minute you increase the cadence. When you have get to the 6th minute you go all out snatching as many times as you can without stopping for at least one minute. The test might look like this but is subject to individual differences:
1st minute: 10 reps left arm
2nd minute: 12 reps right arm
3rd minute 15 reps left arm
4th minute: 17 reps right arm
5th minute: 18 reps left arm
6th minute: 26 reps right arm (all out effort)

Is the only part that's different per individual the last minute? It looks like he wants 1 rep per 6 seconds on minute one, increasing pace each minute until going for a max on minute 6. That's what I thought at first, but on re-reading, I can't quite tell.
As far as program length, on re-reading I see he wants the routine to stretch out to 17 sets, however long that takes. Do I have that part right?
DanMartin
I am Groot
Posts 20282
01-15-08 01:18 PM - Post#396552
  • Laree Said:
  • Boris Said:
I haven't tried it, but make sure you've done plenty of conditioning work building up to it. Granted, my training volume is pretty low compared to a lot of RKCs, GS athletes, etc, but to be really ready for that, I'd want to have 6-8 weeks of prep time.

This is interesting, Boris. Isn't the idea of VO2 training to start wherever you are?
And to that end, about the initial cadence test I have a question. Here's the bit from the article:
The first thing you have to do is to establish at what snatch cadence you come the closest to eliciting your VO2max. This is done by doing an incremental test that lasts no less than 6 minutes. Basically you just start out very slow and for each minute you increase the cadence. When you have get to the 6th minute you go all out snatching as many times as you can without stopping for at least one minute. The test might look like this but is subject to individual differences:
1st minute: 10 reps left arm
2nd minute: 12 reps right arm
3rd minute 15 reps left arm
4th minute: 17 reps right arm
5th minute: 18 reps left arm
6th minute: 26 reps right arm (all out effort)

Is the only part that's different per individual the last minute? It looks like he wants 1 rep per 6 seconds on minute one, increasing pace each minute until going for a max on minute 6. That's what I thought at first, but on re-reading, I can't quite tell.
As far as program length, on re-reading I see he wants the routine to stretch out to 17 sets, however long that takes. Do I have that part right?

Boris is right. Conditioning and hand care are key.
Practice what you suck at.

Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts 25859
01-15-08 01:28 PM - Post#396555
You guys are both saying I should work snatches for awhile to prepare for this, then?
I'm just getting ready to re-start after close to a month off snatches after a non-training thumb injury. It's almost 100%, only pinch grip is painful now, and I've tested snatches and they're fine. All other training has been normal or better, but snatches were out.
DanMartin
I am Groot
Posts 20282
01-15-08 01:39 PM - Post#396559
Silly Goose. Get your self in shape first.
Practice what you suck at.

Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts 25859
01-15-08 01:52 PM - Post#396573
I thought getting in shape was what the VO2-max program was for, taken slowly or progressing quickly depending on the individual.
I'm really enjoying my training right now, so am perfectly happy as is.
ccrow
old hand
Posts 10053
01-15-08 02:00 PM - Post#396576
There are a number of inconsistencies in the process described there.
Number one, that method is an adaptation of a test where you increase pace on a treadmill, but a snatch is not a treadmill.
Number two, it does not determine VO2max.
Number three, intervals done at VO2max would be too silly; for example, Tabata used 170% of VO2max as the starting level for his intervals. You need to be working OVER VO2max if you are going to accumulate any fatigue, you can work at VO2max continuously.
Thing is, who cares. It boils down to 36 seconds on, 36 seconds off, for 10-17 intervals. If you work hard, I am sure there will be results. The idea that 36 seconds is somehow way better than 30 or 45 is kind of like arguing over whether 7 reps is better than 6 or 8, i. e., please.
I will only measure seconds in multiples of five for the same reason I use a level when I hang a picture, it is just SO WRONG not to.
And while I am being a pain in the ass about things, any aerobic training is VO2max training. VO2max = maximal rate of oxygen uptake, if you're at VO2max you haven't crossed over into lactate territory, where muscles start to burn and you get winded. Your VO2max is improved by aerobic work in the target heart rate zone - any aerobic benefit is benefit to VO2max.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole

Boris
Grand Pooh-Bah
Posts 2036
01-15-08 09:45 PM - Post#396781
HAHAHA! Wow, you have a way with words..
I stopped trying to keep up with 'research' and 'protocols' long ago.
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

DanMartin
I am Groot
Posts 20282
01-16-08 06:07 AM - Post#396894
Long term, I think the 7rep/15second deal is the way to go.
Practice what you suck at.

ccrow
old hand
Posts 10053
01-16-08 08:01 AM - Post#396911
Thanks Boris Over time I think the thing to remember is interval training is hard.
Consider this. Let's say someone said they had a program to put 100 pounds on your bench press. Here is the program: 80% of your 1RM for 5x5. Add five pounds every workout. Do it as often as you can without dying. In 20 workouts, you will have arrived.
We all would see that this is no great program. The details of 80%, 5 sets, 5 reps, are close enough, but not magic. The real problem is, unless you're a rank beginner, you're going to fry in 2 weeks.
Ditto with interval training. Forty years ago Bill Starr wrote about heavy, light, and medium weight workouts in the weekly cycle. Later people learned to wave the intensity from week to week, with relatively few all out workouts, lots of hard workouts but not all out, and periodic rest periods to grow on. That is the dual factor method.
It is applied to almost all sports at the collegiate level or higher, at least where you have advanced athletes and professional coaches. (Not really an issue for midget football.)
I suggest it should be applied to interval training too. This waving of intensity week to week will do much more to keep progress coming, and prevent you from training yourself into the ground, than 36 seconds.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-Jon Cole

DanMartin
I am Groot
Posts 20282
01-16-08 09:16 AM - Post#396957
My concern for Laree is over-use injury. To dive in like that without a lot of background work, is asking for trouble. (IMO)
Practice what you suck at.

Dan John
Carpal tunnel from posting!
Posts 11671
01-19-09 05:38 PM - Post#519952
I just saw this. I recommend doing seven reps. Find a weight you can do seven reps with after minute five. Or, like Pavel told me, go just as hard as you can and if you miss reps (only get six or whatever), stop. Try again.
I think the 25-35 minutes we did in San Jose was a bit much.
Daniel John
Just handing down what I was handed down..
Make a Difference.
Live. Love. Laugh.
Balance work, rest, play and pray (enjoy beauty and solitude)
Sleep soundly. Drink Water. Eat veggies and protein. Walk.
Wear your seat belt. Don’t smoke. Floss your teeth.
Put weights overhead. Pick weights off the floor. Carry weights.
Reread great books. Say thank you

Boris
Grand Pooh-Bah
Posts 2036
05-05-09 06:31 PM - Post#549561
I've finally gotten around to trying this. I don't plan on including it on a regular basis in my own training, but it's kind of fun in it's own sick way for a change. I just got the book in the mail today.
Last night:
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/2009/05/vo2max-15-on1 5-off-x-32.html
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

Steve Rogers
Carpal tunnel from posting!
Posts 5060
05-12-09 08:16 AM - Post#551098
Impressive Boris.
I began this a month ago without having done snatches for some time. I added a few practice snatches to my workouts for a few days before taking the test on 16 April. The test indicated 7 reps/set for 15:15, but Dan recommended 8 reps, so that's what I've been doing.
I struggled to complete 8 reps in 15 seconds (16 kg) the first couple of workouts, then adapted to the speed. I only lasted for 5 minutes at first, disabusing myself of the notion that I already had pretty good conditioning. I'm up to 10 minutes now. I've varied the frequency from 2 to 4 times a week. I can see getting burned out at this if you're not careful, but I kind of like it.
'Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry.'

Boris
Grand Pooh-Bah
Posts 2036
05-12-09 08:34 PM - Post#551373
Thanks Steve. I'm not sure I'd enjoy doing this frequently, but I'll do it from time to time. I probably need to do a little more fast paced work than I've been doing anyway.
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

Steve Rogers
Carpal tunnel from posting!
Posts 5060
06-09-09 07:57 AM - Post#558350
I made it up to 15 minutes with the 16 kg kettlebell last week. At the Bash Dan advised strength athletes to move up in weight rather than continuing to add time, so this morning I moved to a 20 kg KB, dropping the duration down to 6 minutes. Endurance athletes should probably follow Ken Jay's advice to work up to 40 minutes with a lighter bell.
'Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry.'

Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts 25859
06-09-09 09:32 PM - Post#558630
15 minutes is remarkable -- 40 minutes, wow.
[Great meeting you, Steve!]
Steve Rogers
Carpal tunnel from posting!
Posts 5060
06-09-09 10:03 PM - Post#558640
Thanks Laree, the pleasure was mine.
When I started 5 minutes was as much as I felt up to. I added a minute whenever it felt right, working up to 15 minutes over 6 weeks.
I think Ken's 40 minute goal is motivated by the Greco-Roman wrestlers he trains. It would also be appropriate for rock climbers and others who need enduring strength.
'Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry.'

jeff2194
Haven't posted much
Posts 15
12-23-09 02:53 PM - Post#596265
Let me first thank this forum for all the tips that you folks have given me. I don’t write much but I read this board almost daily. You guys are great.
I started the KB V02 max training two weeks ago and have a question.
My goal is to increase my endurance for the upcoming RKC Kettlebell snatch test (100 24kg snatches in 5 minutes.) I have done the 100 snatches in 4:50 but felt like I had burned out every cell in my body afterwards. I am assuming that this VO2 Max training will help tremendously with my endurance.
Last week I started with 16kg and completed 30 minutes easily. Yesterday I did 16 minutes of the 7 rep/set 15:15 with 20kg. What a difference a few pounds make! Should I continue on with the 20kg bell and keep working on increasing my minutes or should I start with the 24kg KB the next time I do this?
Laree, how are you doing with this type of training?
Happy Holidays
Boris
Grand Pooh-Bah
Posts 2036
12-23-09 05:18 PM - Post#596307
If you can already do the test, then I guess the goal is to do it without destroying yourself for the rest of the weekend (?).
IMO, it would not be a bad idea to continue what you are doing w. the VO2 max, and adding pace work w. the 53lber.
When is the RKC you are attending?
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

jeff2194
Haven't posted much
Posts 15
12-23-09 06:33 PM - Post#596315
Thanks Boris for the advice.
I’m going to take the RKC in February 2010 in San Jose.
I want to be able to hold myself up with dignity after the test and not fall down in a heap of sweat and anguish in front of my classmates.
This VO2 training might do the trick. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated
Boris
Grand Pooh-Bah
Posts 2036
12-24-09 04:24 PM - Post#596437
I'm sure you'll do great Jeff.
For your pace work, I'd consider doing 1-3:00 repeats switching hands every :15-1:00.
http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

Andrew S
Keeper of the Plains
Posts 2240
07-21-10 03:12 PM - Post#635860
Thought this would be an interesting thread to bump. At some point down the road, I think this kind of training could be very beneficial.
Laree (or anyone else for that matter), would it be possible to briefly summarize what you did here and maybe comment on the progress/benefits?
Laree
(Rhymes with Marie)
Posts 25859
07-21-10 03:36 PM - Post#635867
  • Andrew S Said:
Laree (or anyone else for that matter), would it be possible to briefly summarize what you did here and maybe comment on the progress/benefits?

Go with the 'anyone else' part -- I rarely keep records and don't even remember doing this one. Had to scroll up to see if I'd even posted in the thread. :~)

Andrew S
Keeper of the Plains
Posts 2240
07-21-10 03:42 PM - Post#635870
Haha. That's too funny!
I had just given some thought to what the addition of that protocol once or twice a week might look like. Maybe a variety day or two with the program minimum. Thinking out loud, maybe.
I know some may argue kettlebells are a means to an end, but I really, really like them. :)
Steve Rogers
Carpal tunnel from posting!
Posts 5060
07-24-10 10:36 PM - Post#636558
I've found it a good aerobic workout while maintaining some strength. I've just started 3 days a week of VO2max snatches with some getups and throwing practice mixed in and plan to stick with this for about six weeks.
Adding a VO2max snatch day to the PM for added variety and workload sounds like a good experiment. Why don't you try it an let us know how it works for you?
'Coyote is always waiting, and Coyote is always hungry.'

Andrew S
Keeper of the Plains
Posts 2240
07-26-10 09:10 AM - Post#636741
Will do!
I'm looking at an August 2 start date on this. I really like that protocol quite a bit. I've played with it here and there, but I think that routinely doing it will be better for measuring my progress. Why hello captain obvious. Haha.

Kenneth Jay Vo2max Kettlebell Program

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